Bonjhola

EP 74: Our thoughts on Immigration as Immigrants in a Foreign Land - also: mailing overseas and finding supplements in the EU

• Rebecca West

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Where Aimee Gets Supplements and American Products in the EU

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Where to find Rebecca:

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Welcome to Bon Jola, a podcast about two women, Amy and Rebecca, who each move from the United States to Europe to become expats. Amy to Spain and Rebecca to France. We're here to share the highs, the lows, and the logistics of this adventure. Encourage you to follow your own, move abroad dreams, and remind you that you're not alone when the going gets tough. Enjoy.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi22963444793:

Banla Amy.

audioAimee12963444793:

Rebecca?

audioRebeccaWest,Busi22963444793:

Last time we were chatting about amazing resources around like pharmaceuticals and stuff in different countries.

audioAimee12963444793:

Mm-hmm.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi22963444793:

Turns out you have been holding out on us with a resource here in Europe. You wanna not hold out on us anymore.

audioAimee12963444793:

Holding out's a little harsh. I just didn't think about it until Damien asked about glucosamine,

audioRebeccaWest,Busi22963444793:

Well, what is this thing?

audioAimee12963444793:

So there's a company, and I believe they are us, US based, it's called iHerb, I-H-E-R-B. And they, they ship to the eu. So this is where I get a lot of my US brands that I'm not able to find here in Spain locally. And I don't trust Amazon. And even Amazon and Spain doesn't have a lot of, you know, these specific brands. So they not only have supplements, but they also have cleaning products and herbs and spices and food, and a whole bunch of different, um, sundries, for lack of a better word. And they are a fantastic resource. And as soon as I was like, oh, I totally have a place where you guys can get glucosamine. I don't need to pick it up for you in the States, then you were like, why haven't you shared this, this, we need to talk about this on bun. So I, herb is great. There is no, extra that. The prices are of course, higher than you would get in the us but they don't charge that. On top of that, there's never been any issues with customs here in Spain. and I don't know how that experience has been for you in France, but we find that in Spain. They hold a grudge, I think against UK particularly.'cause it's very difficult to get things from the uk and then you have to pay import taxes on top of it. and then we've had to pay, like Shane received a book that was a gift. Last year from a colleague of his, and then we had to pay, basically, I think he had to pay 17 euros in import taxes on a hardback book, which would've cost maybe the same or a little bit more in the US to just get it off of Amazon.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi22963444793:

Truly.

audioAimee12963444793:

So, um, this is something if you know people who live abroad. And something if you live abroad that you want to tell others is do not send gifts because the import taxes are. So prohibitive, and it often doesn't matter if it is a gift or a family heirloom or something that you just purchase on Amazon and have shipped over from outside the eu, they are gonna ding you so hard on those import taxes that it is not worth it at all. Just wait until you are traveling to them or they're traveling to you and give it to them in person. Or do a gift card because. So nothing says, I love you, like paying to be able to release your gift from customs.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi22963444793:

Yeah, and it's not just the time, it's not just the money of paying, but it didn't, you have to figure out where you're supposed to go to go pick up this item and then navigate the bureaucracy in, of course, this other language. Yeah. My family and I have definitely found the same thing my. My dad and I send each other letters regularly, and now that I have a stable address, we've been able to get those and it might take 10 days for the letter to get to me. It might take three weeks. We also have our mail forwarded from our UPS store in Seattle. Generally, that will show up about four days after they send it, but last month didn't show up until a month later.

audioAimee12963444793:

Wow,

audioRebeccaWest,Busi22963444793:

wasn't really waiting on it, so I did, I wasn't paying attention to the tracking. But yeah, that envelope came to me in a condition that suggested it had seen some things. But my dad, yeah, my dad tried to send us a box of, Pepto, I think it was, you know,'cause of my Pepto addiction. Um, and. I, boy, it was a combination of everything you're describing, plus the fact that he was trying to ship liquids. It just was, it never did get to me.

Aimee:

right.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi22963444793:

My mom hasn't sent anything since I've moved here. We focus entirely on having Zoom calls and yeah, it's, it's weird. You wouldn't think in this day and age that there is this big of a challenge with, I don't even know what to call it, but cross. Country shipping.

audioAimee12963444793:

Yeah. Well, I think being in North America, we're just so accustomed to NAFTA covering so much of the continent that. It's not, we don't think about it. And things that we do have access to that are imported from other countries, all of that cost and hassle has been taken care of for us. So there's no connection to the red tape and the bullshit. People have to go through to get their products into another country for, you know, for sale and, vice versa. I think people are aware of it now more because of the whole tariff situation. But

audioRebeccaWest,Busi22963444793:

And and Brexit. I think Brexit made a lot more aware of how much a treaty can affect the small business person just trying to sell their earrings somewhere. Right? Yeah.

audioAimee12963444793:

a hundred percent, absolutely. Yeah.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi22963444793:

we also are, as we've said so many times on this podcast, our country is so big that we have access to this massive market without ever going international. We're a lot more aware of interstate taxes and interstate rules, and rarely does the entrepreneur in America ever really think past our US borders or have to think past our US borders.

audioAimee12963444793:

Yes, and there's very little that we actually produce internally now because we've exported all of our labor to cheaper countries. And so if we actually were, you know, facing what was initially imposed. It suggested, you know, when imposed with tariffs, I think we would be stunned to realize that practically everything in the US uh, I can't speak to Canada, is, you know, from outside the country, from Mexico, from China, from Taiwan, from Vietnam. You know, it's, it's all the clothing, everything, everything. The clothing. It's I, aside from Teslas, I don't even know what we produce in-house anymore.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi22963444793:

You know, you, we were talking about how the tariffs and Brexit made that more present for us, but COVID really did too, especially my industry with interior design and recognizing. The intersection of all of the chain of, um, supply chain, supply chain, hugely interconnected. And, and I think that was a good reminder, honestly,

audioAimee12963444793:

A hundred percent. We have lived so easily for so long.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi22963444793:

you were talking so for, I mean, there's no way people would know this. We just saw each other in real life. I was just in Joan visiting you, and we reminded ourselves that we wanted to talk about our. Immigrant perspective on immigration,

audioAimee12963444793:

Hmm.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi22963444793:

and I think that this ties into that this, this awareness of how everything is both very global and very interconnected, and yet at every corner, these surprises about how not interconnected and howy border those borders still are in so many ways too. It's really fascinating to see all of this through the lens of somebody living outside of a system.

audioAimee12963444793:

Mm-hmm. A hundred percent. And of course immigration's a super hot topic in the States right now. Um, and I am the child of an immigrant, so I've had a very unique perspective. well, I guess not so unique now because there are so many Latinos in the us, but growing up in the eighties and. Immigration sweeps, you know, happening in my hometown. Like that was just part of growing up. You know, you'd hear about, it was just very normal, you know, you gotta be careful and if you're working and you don't have papers, you just, you gotta watch your back. And that, you know, the network says, oh, there's gonna be, you know, they're doing sweeps here. They did a sweep there. And then you, you know, you're on high alert and you can relax for a little bit. When they're not. Um, roving through town, hoovering up workers, but that was just such a background normalcy growing up, and so I don't, I guess I would say I don't have that. Perception that this, you know, what's happening in the States now is an anomaly, is outrageous, is something new and horrific. It's like, no, this was going on in the eighties and nineties. This was like, this has always been going on. It just didn't have the virality that it does now. And I think too, the US as a culture was a bit more segregated, you know, than, than now because now we have children of immigrants and grandchildren of immigrants who are wholly American, but still have that connection to, you know, what their, what the previous generations have, have lived through. So it's, it.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi22963444793:

Right. Have people getting deported who are citizens

audioAimee12963444793:

Yes. That is not something that I grew up with. That does feel a little newer. The, uh, the break everything and figure out how to fix it later.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi22963444793:

Humpty Dumpty policy?

audioAimee12963444793:

yeah, that was not quite as, uh, yeah, not quite as prolific.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi22963444793:

I'm not sure if it makes a difference, but I also feel like. In this day and age, we have a lot more intermarrying of different cultures too, and generations of mixed marriages. And so I think that there are a lot more, I'm gonna say it this way, I think there's a lot more white people aware of the reality that you just called reality growing up.

audioAimee12963444793:

a hundred

audioRebeccaWest,Busi22963444793:

know, my reality, I would, you know, very middle class growing up military, so I was really part of the US system. And then being, so middle class, military and very white. I'm as pale as they come. The police were our allies. I never had anything in my upbringing other than when you have trouble, you go to the police. That is my entire reality,

audioAimee12963444793:

Yeah, mine was the opposite.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi22963444793:

and I think that's true for a lot of people. It's, it's, the thing I like about being here in Europe is being close, which we've said on this podcast before too, is being close to history in a way that I never felt in the United States,

audioAimee12963444793:

Yeah.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi22963444793:

but at this point I'm having a, I don't know, I'm having a challenging time figuring out what even to say to my American friends because I almost feel. Like, I've escaped or like I've got all this distance. And so in some ways I feel like I don't really have anything to say to my US friends because I'm not experiencing what they are. But at the same time, I feel like I've got distance and perspective and a global perspective that almost gives me insight that they don't have. It's, it's an awkward position for me right now with my friends.

audioAimee12963444793:

is that awkwardness you're putting on yourself or have you had interactions with your friends that leave you feeling that way?

audioRebeccaWest,Busi22963444793:

No, not with my friends, but it's because I'm running a small business in a luxury market. And, and dealing specifically with marketing. Like my job is to help. Luxury interior designers learn how to talk about their service, and from them, I'm hearing a lot of how am I supposed to run a business and talk about kitchen models when the world is falling apart around our ears? That's what I'm hearing and feeling from them, and so I'm trying to figure out how do I help them navigate that when I'm in this very unique position at the same time.

audioAimee12963444793:

Yeah, that's um. I mean, what else are they going to do? Are they gonna stop living their lives? That doesn't seem to be helpful.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi22963444793:

Well, what we're, what I'm finding we end up shaping the conversation around is how can we be helpful?

Aimee:

Yeah.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi22963444793:

Really going back to the basics of if your client is in the position where they're going to do a kitchen remodel anyway. You want them to have a good experience. And so you have to make your service and yourself available, um, and, and changing, and I think this is a great way to approach marketing anyway. How can you be of service? You're not trying to push your services on people that don't need them. That would be ridiculous, but. I think our industry has always been one that's tricky to navigate, especially if you have values around sustainability or spending your money in ways that make a difference in the world. And then you feel a lot of heaviness when you're also like, but I want my home to be nurturing and modern and fresh, or whatever your, your impulses are.

audioAimee12963444793:

Yeah.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi22963444793:

It's a, it's a strange place made stranger by being alive right now.

audioAimee12963444793:

Yeah, I, I think it's a wonderful opportunity to niche, I mean, if you are an interior designer who cares about, um. Immigrant issues or who cares about sustainability, then that's your niche. You look for small businesses that have been created by immigrants or people of color. You look for companies that are B Corp, right, that have sustainability as a primary value. Like you don't have to. I don't know. It's, it's interesting because I've never held this idea that because the world is a shit show that I have to somehow stop my life and swim in the shit just because the shit is there. Like, that doesn't, it just doesn't make sense to me. I think it's that weird white guilt that you all have, that you know, the self-flagellation, um, that is very much a puritan. Story. That is so weird. Is so weird. Like,

audioRebeccaWest,Busi22963444793:

do. The person who's feeling it any good, and it doesn't give the people you're feeling guilty about not helping any good because

audioAimee12963444793:

doesn't change the world.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi22963444793:

anybody.

audioAimee12963444793:

No, no. This idea of like, oh, the bar is low. Let's just meet the bar and everybody stay in the shit like, God, why? What's the purpose of being alive then you.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi22963444793:

yeah, I a hundred percent agree and I love that you're calling out the idea of niche. Of course. That's my, my jam anyway. But yes, putting the effort into saying, I am going to become an expert in sourcing in this particular way.

audioAimee12963444793:

Mm-hmm.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi22963444793:

actually needed more than ever because bring in another huge monster in our lives right now. But with AI and all of these thinking machines that can assimilate so much information, it's going to become more important than ever that you can have somebody with an actual brain who can take in what you need and say, okay, there's a thousand resources, but here are the two that you need.

audioAimee12963444793:

Yeah. Yeah.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi22963444793:

And that is something that. So far, still only humans can do. I also think it's a great chance for us to remember that it doesn't have to be the big things. You don't have to change big things to have a change.

audioAimee12963444793:

Yes. Yeah, I was really lucky to realize that at a pretty young age, um, because I got involved in the animal welfare movement as a preteen and was. Yeah, yeah, I had a pretty morose adolescence. I studied Gandhi and animal rights and was very aware of all of the injustice happening in the world. Very, very aware. And so by time I reached college, I knew that I couldn't change the world. That was impossible. And all I could do was impact the community around me. And because I was a crazy, really aggressive, militant vegan for a while, I also came to discover that you persuade better by being an example rather than being a dictator. Um.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi22963444793:

Absolutely.

audioAimee12963444793:

And, and so that, you know, I've never, I had friends I went to college with who went into public policy and I was like, God, speed my friend, like, good for you for wanting to go to the top and try and change the system from within. I don't have the personality for it. And they didn't, you know, end up spending their entire career there either, I think probably because it's so defeating. But um, yeah, there's, there's so much more all. All massive change in the world, whether institutional or cultural has been grassroots. It's never top down. And so we can do so much more simply by who, who we show up as for the people around us.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi22963444793:

Yeah.

audioAimee12963444793:

And I think too, you know, circling back to that idea of immigration and views on immigration. As, you know, an immigrant in a foreign country. That was one of the things I wanted to be very mindful of coming here, is I am a guest here and I was really surprised to discover that Spain has a, you know, neutral to positive view of Americans. It's, it's really kind of the Brits and the Germans that their ire is focused on. So I didn't, I didn't have to do as much legwork to feel. I didn't have to do any leg work really to feel welcomed in the community, but one of the things I was very mindful of is I don't speak the local language here. I don't know kalan. However, the small words that I pick up, the day-to-day greetings, you know, please thank you. Those I make sure to use because I am in their country not. Not mine and the I, you know, it's one of the things Americans have a reputation for is expecting the world to bend towards their comfort rather than adjusting to the environment that they're in. And I am acutely aware that I don't. I ever wanna be that person. I'm not sure that I could be, I don't know that that's in my nature, especially being the child of an immigrant whose focus in life was assimilation. You know, to the extent that I didn't learn my paternal tongue because we spoke English only in the home. But it's, it is interesting. And here in Spain, you know, there's a lot of press about the Antit tourism going on. There is not a big, and you know, that's legit. That's huge. It's a huge issue locally because housing prices have gotten so high and Airbnbs and tourists vacation rentals. That is the target of, that's the scapegoat effectively because only about one, one and a half percent of the homes in this country are. Short term vacation rentals. So if we banned that and freed everything up, it wouldn't make a significant dent in the housing crisis. Yeah, and I believe those numbers are correct. I saw them recently and I believe that is correct. There's not a lot of anti-immigration sentiment though, here. Um, even though. Europe as a, as a continent, I'm feeling is cracking down on immigration fairly significantly, you know, in, in Britain and Germany and several other countries. What, I don't know. I'm not familiar with this situation in France though. Do you know anything about kind of,

audioRebeccaWest,Busi22963444793:

I think it's very similar, but I also think we have to be. Aware of what we mean when they say cracking down on immigration. It always has been selective cracking down for all of the countries, you know. So for France, I would think it's going to be mostly, um, on African immigrants because Africa's right close and that's the one that they don't tend to want to let in. So, and, and I find that really interesting because. I, I spent my life aware of British colonies'cause I am, you know, an ex British colony as American person and I've spent very little time thinking about the French colonies and I'm much more aware of them now, many of which were most of Africa. And so it's sort of like, okay guys, um, you created a lot of situations and now you're mad about all these French. Speaking humans wanting to come to your country. It's like, you know, all of us as colonial powers in America ended up being one too. We kind of made some beds and now we're sleeping in'em and we're like, oh, I don't like this bed. It was like, well, yeah, well study your history. History. They aren't just coming here'cause it's random. They don't just speak French'cause it's random or English or whichever country was in charge. I think that's the thing for me is all of this is so much more complicated than any of us wanna allow for, and it's complicated being an immigrant and keeping your culture, but also saying, I'm not in my own country anymore and I have a responsibility to assimilate and become part of this country. You want both? How do you have both? How do you give your kids. The history of whatever your family is, but also give them the opportunity to be a, a citizen of the country in which they, in fact, are a member and are probably to identify with much more than whatever the mother country was. We plopped you down in Mexico. That might be your heritage, Amy, but I'm guessing you'd be like, yeah, some things feel weird here compared to what I'm used to.

audioAimee12963444793:

Y Yeah, I don't, I don't belong anywhere. And that's, I guess I didn't know until I came here and spoke with someone else who immigrated to this country that, when you are the child. Of an immigrant, you because you, you live in both, in a sense. You are of both countries, but of neither. And that was something I felt my entire life because the values that, you know, my father brought from Mexico, well, many of them dovetailed really nice with, with my mother's values, particularly around pathological work ethics. Um, you know, that worked really well for them. But, but the hyper conservative nature of me being a girl, the daughter of a Mexican father, and I'm sure that no one else in my grade had a parent is severely critiquing their clothing like my dad did. No exposed shoulders, nothing above the knee, right? Like very, everything had to be a certain way. And that was something that of course was very atypical for, you know, an American growing up in the eighties and nineties. But at the same time were I to be in Mexico, the. Everybody in everybody's face and everybody's business all the time. Aspect of Latin culture, very much not,

audioRebeccaWest,Busi22963444793:

Yeah.

audioAimee12963444793:

not my American life, right? We're a little bit private. We don't kiss when we say hello, we're not all in each other's business, so, so there's never, I've never had a place where, where I. Came from in a sense, right where I belong. And, and this is something too that I've really noticed recently that people get their undies all wadded up about. And I'm like, what's the big deal? Why do you, why do you expect this to be a fundamental right of yours? And that's representation. I've never been represented. I've never seen movies with a Latino father and an American mother. I've never seen that growing up. I've never seen a group of people who were half and half hanging out at a table talking. I've not, that doesn't. Uh, that's not anything I've ever experienced, and I don't feel like I have the right to have that any more than I feel like I have the right to have all of the furnishings created in this country fit a petite five foot two woman. Like the world's not designed for me. And I think it's weird and a little well, and a little narcissistic that people think that they have a a right. And it's, it's a, it's a almost a. Insults if they're not accommodated to in that sense. Um,

audioRebeccaWest,Busi22963444793:

I think you're speaking again to something that is very different between growing up white and growing up, not white.'cause the world is built to accommodate a white person. And I remember I

audioAimee12963444793:

our worlds are anyway.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi22963444793:

Yeah, the, the world in which I grew up, right. So that it sets you up for this expectation that it's just normal. Like, and, and because you only know your own lived experience, you don't think that other people are having a different experience. You don't see that. I remember I interviewed this guy who is, he's a dwarf and he has children who are not,

audioAimee12963444793:

Yeah,

audioRebeccaWest,Busi22963444793:

children who are not, and children who are both.

audioAimee12963444793:

yeah, yeah. I know. I actually went to school with someone who is in that

audioRebeccaWest,Busi22963444793:

Yeah, so I was asking about his house and did he, would he wish to shape it to his stature? And he said when he was growing up, he went to a friend's house where everybody in the family was of shorter than stature, height, and they had actually built it for their frames. And he said it was amazing.

audioAimee12963444793:

wow.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi22963444793:

everything, nothing was out of reach. And he said. That it was really, really nice. The ease was so nice because, you know, at his height going just to a Starbucks and getting the coffee, you're taking your, your life in your hands because it's literally gonna

audioAimee12963444793:

Above your head. Mm-hmm.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi22963444793:

And he said, but I don't want to to do that for my kids in our house because I don't want, I want, he said, I want them to be prepared to go out into the real world.'cause the real world is not built to accommodate short people.

Aimee:

Right, right.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi22963444793:

I've thought about that ever since. You know this choice of, do we make things easier and more accommodating, more comfortable? And there's an argument for that because everything we put energy into zaps our energy. And then there's less energy left over from, for whatever you're trying to do in your life. But at the same time, you can be too comfortable. You can get too used to being comfortable and you can forget how to be adaptive and resilient and. And adapt to other people's needs and be aware of other people's needs. And those are really important things too.

audioAimee12963444793:

There's an argument happening in the US right now that we have become too fragile and too comfortable, and now we can't handle shit.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi22963444793:

Yeah, and

audioAimee12963444793:

We've got,

audioRebeccaWest,Busi22963444793:

that's true.

audioAimee12963444793:

you know, we need, yeah. I'm not, I'm not gonna go there.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi22963444793:

I'd like to go back to the sense of belonging because I remember, because I feel very similar to you and I've never felt I belonged anywhere, and that's from growing up in the Army. And when I first heard the phrase third country kid.

Aimee:

Yes.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi22963444793:

finally felt like I had a, like a pillow that I was landing on, and I think it's part of why I am enjoying being an expat so much because I am surrounded by other people who don't fit and therefore I have found my tribe and it feels amazing.

audioAimee12963444793:

Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's a valid point. And we've talked about that before, right? Like when you meet other expats, there's immediate commonality because you've both chosen to leave your birthplace and gone to another country and navigated the logistics of trying to make that work.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi22963444793:

The questions you ask each other are just immediately different because you can't make any assumptions. You know, you meet some lady who has three kids and works at the bank and has grown up her whole life in this place, and you, you forget to ask. Why, what, what's interesting about you when there's plenty of story to be had, but we forget to ask. You know, when we just talk about the weather and you meet somebody who uprooted themselves from Hungary to move to Paris to go to cooking school, and you're like, why? What brought you here? How did this become the thing that you chose

audioAimee12963444793:

Mm-hmm.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi22963444793:

and you remember how interesting every human and every story really is.

audioAimee12963444793:

Yeah. Yeah. We all have, we all have those little bits of fascination in our, in our history book.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi22963444793:

Yeah, and we get to support each other again because we are kind of all floundering and, and we're like, you know, I really wanna find glucosamine, and next thing you know, somebody's got an.

audioAimee12963444793:

I will put the link to, uh, I Herb in the show notes for people who want to check it out. Um, it's actually a really good resource too, if you're stateside.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi22963444793:

I love it. And so GoodRx was what I mentioned last time. That was for coupons on regular prescriptions that you would get at a pharmacy

audioAimee12963444793:

In the United States.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi22963444793:

in the United States specifically. And then I, herb, apparently international for getting the supplements and stuff that I would've typically just run over to super, super supplements to grab

audioAimee12963444793:

Right,

audioRebeccaWest,Busi22963444793:

back in the states.

audioAimee12963444793:

Yeah.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi22963444793:

Figuring it out. One answer at a time.

audioAimee12963444793:

One answer at a time. I think that's probably all we have. Yeah.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi22963444793:

Yeah, we gave you a resource. That's all you get from us today. So

Speaker 2:

We hope you enjoyed this episode of Banla. If you did, the best thing you can do is share it with another person, brave enough to move abroad. See you next time.