Bonjhola

EP 78: Barcelona Resources, Dental Surgery and the Spanish Walk of Shame

• Rebecca West

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Welcome to Bon Jola, a podcast about two women, Amy and Rebecca, who each move from the United States to Europe to become expats. Amy to Spain and Rebecca to France. We're here to share the highs, the lows, and the logistics of this adventure. Encourage you to follow your own, move abroad dreams, and remind you that you're not alone when the going gets tough. Enjoy.

Aimee:

Rebecca,

Rebecca:

Amy,

Aimee:

it's my understanding that even though it's autumn and things have cooled down, you are walking through hell.

Rebecca:

I'm walking through hell, which is called Bureaucracy.

Aimee:

Okay. So before we dive into that, we did get a piece of fan mail, which is how it is labeled in our backend, and I went to respond to the inquiry, which was a question about relocation support in Barcelona, because I had mentioned that a friend of ours had moved to Barcelona and used a relocation agency to help them with integration. And it was wonderful. And she was wanting to know the, the query was, who was that? Do you, do you know who that was? And I reached out to my friend and she told me it is BCN Life. That is the company that they used that helped them find an apartment and get settled in when they moved to Barcelona and they discovered I cannot respond directly to this wonderful person who's listened and wants more information. So I wanted to make sure that at the start of this episode, we got that information to them. Hopefully they are still listening. and if you do respond to us. With some fan mail and you have a question, gosh, let us know how we can reach out to you directly and we will be happy to do that. You can also reach out to us via Instagram. We have our Instagram handles in the show notes of every episode, and I know that there's been at least one person who has been so savvy as to email me directly by doing a little bit of internet sleuthing. That is possible as well.

Rebecca:

Yes, Amy and I are always happy to hear from you. Just if you wanna hear back from us, we need to know how to reach you.

Aimee:

Exactly. Okay, so let's get to the real topic at hand for this episode.

Rebecca:

Yeah. Um. A little update on the chapters involved in trying to get into the French system. Uh, visa, no movement. So as we all know, I got my first year's visa. I'm trying to renew my second year's visa, which should have been renewed back in February. It's now September. No movement. Um, my. Little piece of paper that says I can leave the country and come back expires in two days. So we just resubmitted to the prefecture saying, Hey, and that's the update on that. The special level of hell is coming from trying to get onto the health insurance system, the cart vial system here.

Aimee:

Given that you don't actually have a visa right now,

Rebecca:

No, the two systems are completely unrelated to

Aimee:

okay.

Rebecca:

um, which might be part of the problem. Like if the department spoke to each other, this might be easier, but they do not. No. Um, I've leaped, I have leapt successfully through several hoops. I seem to have established that I have. A home here, that has been the hardest thing because of the whole Airbnb thing we've talked about over and over again, that permanent address aspect. So based on the most recent letter that I got from the healthcare system, all quote, all they're asking for now is an explanation of why my name on my birth certificate doesn't match the name on my passport.

Aimee:

Oh.

Rebecca:

They're saying that they would like the judicial documents that show this. The problem is that that name change happened. I went from my birth name accordingly to my married name, Doherty, my first marriage,

Aimee:

Yes,

Rebecca:

and then upon divorcing I chose my new last name West, so that would be captured in the divorce documents,

Aimee:

correct.

Rebecca:

and then I'm married.

Aimee:

It shows you having a different surname than on your birth certificate. So they'll be like, you're presenting us this paper where neither name is your birth name. Please explain.

Rebecca:

Exactly, and of course my current marriage isn't much help because I didn't take my new husband's name and I don't, I have my marriage certificate to Danien and it does say, what was your name at birth? If different. I just found this document last night at 2:00 AM so I will be trying to submit that. I don't know if it will work at all. So here's, here are the, the roadblocks that I've hit. First of all, knowing that I need to find this, knowing that I do not have. In my hands a copy of those, that paperwork. I think it may be in the safe, buried in a storage unit in Seattle, but I'm not even sure that's true. So it's not like sending somebody to check would help. They say, if you don't have the documents, you should try and get a certificate of concordance from your consulate. So I go to the consulate website and it says, we don't do that.

Aimee:

Oh no. What.

Rebecca:

it does say it's like, that is a French document. We don't do that. It says We will notarize a sworn statement and that will have a official federal seal, so maybe that will help. I'm like, okay, cool. So I decided I was first gonna try to get the the documents and then I would pursue the embassy. So we've got two different stories here. So the documents you can get them from the place that recorded your divorces and marriage. In my case, that's the King County Courthouse. So I've been diving deep into that. I found records of my divorce, but I can't see the records, the fact that it seems to exist. I only know it's mine because the date is right and the husband is right. My last name is recorded as Smith.

Aimee:

What.

Rebecca:

Dunno, why haven't uncovered that mystery yet. There's also a record of the marriage, but again, it's not viewable on their quote, online viewable system. So that has a dead end. They're only open until 2:00 PM, in the afternoons. So I missed my window to call. There was another place that I could click that says, oh, you can get the documents here, which was also a dead end because it's a certificate, not the documents.

Aimee:

Hmm.

Rebecca:

But even if it weren't the dead end, there's a five month backlog on getting divorce and marriage certificates.

Aimee:

Oh my goodness.

Rebecca:

Okay. So I circled back to the embassy last night at 2:00 AM and I'm like, okay, well what would it take to get the appointment to get this notarizing done? Well. Come to find out that on their online calendar you've got three different colors, dates that are not available, dates that are full, and dates that are available. There are three dates that show as full. There are no dates for months upon months. There's just none available at all. There're all blacked out, so there is no appointment to get to get this half step notarizing that probably won't even fulfill the French requirements anyway.

Aimee:

Where, where is the embassy in Paris?

Rebecca:

I haven't even looked up the address because the, I

Aimee:

Just go there. I, I mean, Paris is huge, so it's going to be in Paris. Just go there in person, because at least in Spain trying to create an appointment online, particularly with anything having to do with the government driver's, licenses, whatever, it's impossible. It is impossible. There are actually people who hire people to sit in front of a computer in case a slot happens to open up. And or they purchase mul or they make multiple like appointments in advance somehow and then sell them to third parties. Like

Rebecca:

ticket

Aimee:

it's a whole, yeah, it's a whole thing because the bureaucracy here is so royally jacked up and.

Rebecca:

It really is. And you know.

Aimee:

it wouldn't be surprising if there's something similar in Paris where it's just impossible to get something done online because antiquated website, nothing gets updated, you know, weird shenanigans, and you just have to go in person and talk to a human to figure out what the hell is going on and get your problem solved.

Rebecca:

That said, it may or may not be a France thing. Our entire government is. Currently lacking in staff in all of the jobs because of what's been going on. So like a five month delay on getting very fundamental basic records is, it feels like a. Mm. A symptom of a much bigger thing happening. So I don't, I don't know. I don't, I think that's a good idea. I think if I do that, I should try to come prepared to get it done, which means I've already used Chad GPT to format a, a sworn statement.'cause they won't help you make it. You have to come with the statement. You can write whatever you want. They do give you some guidance on that, on the, on the site, which basically says, we're not allowed to give you any advice. Say whatever you want, we'll notarize it. And of course if, if anybody has listened to this podcast, you know that I have a hell of a time getting anything printed, so there's a very good chance I'll be buying a printer this week just so I have it. And that is my current special level of hell. It feels like how people. Play those video games where you have to first figure out how to unlock the puzzles and then you solve the puzzles.

Aimee:

Yeah.

Rebecca:

There's so much time spent trying to figure out how you unlock the box before you can even solve the puzzle.

Aimee:

This is what it's like to live in a foreign country, folks. This is like just such a classic example of the things that they never talk about on Instagram.

Rebecca:

This is the stuff that wears you out. I think this is the stuff that gets people to give up and go home. And I won't say that the honeymoon is over, but there's mosquitoes at my theme park right now. Like, I'm like, what? Why?

Aimee:

Yeah.

Rebecca:

But it's fine. But speaking of healthcare, you have some successes

Aimee:

I do, I do. So I have navigated dental surgery in Spain. Um, think we actually shared this on the podcast, but I had told you when we spoke last that I have, I still have baby teeth. And, uh, evidently it's extremely rare because most people are stunned to find out that I had, uh, I did not have adult buds for four teeth and therefore I have, you know, I had four baby. One of them, um, cracked and broke and, you know, they're all effectively dead, but they have fused to my jaw and so they don't fall out. You know, they're perfectly functional teeth, just very, very tiny compared to the rest of them. Um, but one of them cracked and fell out, gosh, probably 22 years ago. And then, um. When I was pregnant, I had an abscess and had a tooth pulled that was next to one of where the baby teeth tooth was, that that fell out. So I have two, two teeth missing next to each other, and I have talked to numerous dentists in the states over the last, you know, 15, 20 years about. Implants, what that looks like. And you know, when I was in my twenties, just like, well that's just way too expensive No can do. And

Rebecca:

kind of numbers were we talking about?

Aimee:

gosh, I don't even remember. It's been so long. I suspect it was probably somewhere in the$5,000 range, you know, in the early, uh, in the early two thousands. Um. But honestly, I, I have no idea. So I always put it off and then, you know, as our financial situation got better and, and things became more stable, then I started, you know, making more frequent inquiries more seriously. And everyone, I think, I think I've had three inquiries done in the States in the last 10 years, and they're like, well. You know, these teeth have been missing for a while, so we're gonna have to do a bone graft and that'll take like eight, 12 weeks to heal. And then we're gonna have to put in the pins, and that'll be another eight weeks for the, or the posts, and then we'll put the crowns on after that. So you're looking at total of the six to nine month process.

Rebecca:

Yeah, so now it's not just money. It a huge disruption in your life for something that isn't actually causing you pain right now.

Aimee:

Exactly, exactly. Um, yeah, because I have one side of my mouth that I can chew on, so I have punted that for quite some time in part because I also had, you know, a good, the first, I would say the first 20, 25 years of my life dentistry. Actually, pretty much throughout dentistry has seemed to create as much, if not more consequences that are negative than

Rebecca:

Oh no.

Aimee:

the problems that they've solved. Like I've not dentistry and I have had a fraught relationship. And, um, you know, in my childhood, my dentist was super big into shaming and you know, I mean, it was just like iy, icky, icky, icky, all the way around.

Rebecca:

Wait, and so you're carrying all of that into the idea of going to a foreign dentist too.

Aimee:

N no, because I've actually had very specific therapy EMDR therapy to get over my trust issues and fear of dentists completely ruining me in order to be able to have consistent dental care.

Rebecca:

Okay. I wanna keep going with your story, but let's actually take a second for that because somebody out there might really want whatever you just talked about. Um, say it again and give us a brief description of what this was and, and how how well it worked.

Aimee:

so you know, I obviously, individual results may vary, but EMDR is eye movement desensitization. I believe something like that. It is a, so it is a form of therapy that historically has used specific eye movements, um, to desensitize, desensitize a person from trauma. It sounds really freaking hippie. It sounds super woo woo. However, the, it has been very successfully used with, um, war veterans. And, um, it is often used in individuals who have, uh, trauma and PTSD, uh, after sexual assault. Very good track record among both of those demographics

Rebecca:

I also love the fact that dental trauma can actually seem small compared to the examples you just gave. So it's like,

Aimee:

Oh, a hundred

Rebecca:

on that, it'll definitely work on dentists.

Aimee:

well, I mean, that was one that was like, well. I was almost embarrassed to go and ask. I was like, well, you know, I don't even know if this is quote trauma, but I see this, I have this fear that does stop me from doing what ultimately I want to get done because I can't trust anybody because of all of these repeated experiences that I have had. Where they have, where dentists have caused harm and lied about it, like lied about it while they were like cutting my gums, telling me they would grow back. And I was like, that doesn't seem right. I've never heard of gum tissue growing back after you cut it away from the tooth and rip it out, but, and sure enough, no, that's not a thing. Dentist lied. lied to me. Um. And, and you know, my, my childhood dentist being like this just guy who was really into browbeat and shame as a way of getting compliance and it didn't work. But that was the only methodology he knew. And then, you know, just stuff, so much stuff. So, and I've got a weird mouth anyway because of these baby teeth, right? And you know, some dentists look at you, they open up your mouth and they're like, oh, you have baby teeth. Oh, you have these baby teeth. Let's just rip these out and give you implants. Like there's why. Why They're fine. Why do you want to do all of this invasive stuff, you know, to make my mouth look? A certain way when you know this is okay. So I've had decades of very bad experiences with dentists and them going in and being like, oh, your jaw is slightly crooked. Let's do this thing, and then they make an attempt to fix it. That costs an outrageous amount of money that has to be incurred as debt only to end up making the problem worse. I could go on. I'm not going to belabor the point, so I did the therapy. Thank

Rebecca:

now you're not,

Aimee:

on track.

Rebecca:

and now you are. You're totally cool with going to the dentist.

Aimee:

I wouldn't say I'm totally cool. I still have a lot of. Trepidation and I still lead with mistrust. However, I don't lead into that mistrust with a feeling of, I don't know what I'm doing, I don't know how to advocate for myself. I am completely at the mercy of this person in the chair, and I'm a total victim in the situation. Right now, I go in and I'm like, I'm interviewing you. I'm sussing out your knowledge. I am asking questions. I am checking in with my own intuition on how this is gonna go. And I'm not just talking to you, I'm talking to other people.

Rebecca:

I love that. I think that is so powerful. Not just for the dentist and doctor, but really for any scenario where we can, we can allow ourselves to walk into a. Space, small, or we can learn to walk into that same space standing up and saying, I'm an equal partner in this room. And that's really profound what you just described. That's a huge shift.

Aimee:

Yeah. But, um. Is super uncomfortable for me to talk about'cause my mouth has always been like a source of embarrassment and shame because of dentists.

Rebecca:

it also might be super uncomfortable'cause you recently had dental surgery, so let's skip forward to

Aimee:

yeah, let's, thank you. Let's get forward to that. So. So I, you know, it takes me two years. Now, keep in mind, despite this trauma therapy, it takes me two years to be able to go and even make a dentist appointment for myself for a cleaning, because all of this stuff around language,

Rebecca:

right?

Aimee:

And I don't know anything about dentistry in Spain. I don't know how all of that works. And I don't even have a baseline of comparison within Spain,

Rebecca:

It

Aimee:

I don't know

Rebecca:

the earlier analogy of the puzzle box, like you can't make the appointment. There's 17 steps before that.

Aimee:

right, there's all this stuff I have to do to even get to a place where I'm comfortable making an appointment. And I, I did the things. I found a dentist. It's a holistic dentist place. They also have an orthodontist they, you know, kind of created, I met with the, OR orthodontist. We kind of created this care plan and you know, she said really weird things at the onset. She was like, oh, you know, all of this will be done. You know, maybe. We're looking at maybe four or five months, you'll be good. We're just gonna put the posts in, we're gonna put the implants in, it'll be fine. And no mention of bone graft. And, and I said, well, do you like, what about the bone and the jaw? And she's like, well, we're gonna send you to get an MRI to see if the bone is tall enough and wide enough for, for the posts. And I was like, oh, well that's, that's interesting because no one. Even bothered to suggest that in the States it was just you're getting a bone graft because, this tooth has been gone for a while. So I go and get the MRIs, comes back and I will tell, like, I'll just say, you know, my own opinion, the bone is super thin. I don't feel like the bone in the jaw where the teeth are missing. Is nearly as wide and robust as where the teeth are. She says, you have enough bone here? And I'm like, Hmm. No one's ever told me that. I always hear the opposite I don't feel it has enough bone there. And so in my head I'm like. They're gonna put these posts in and it's gonna shatter my jaw. You know,

Rebecca:

Yes.

Aimee:

all of these like worst case scenarios. And you know, the day that they put the posts in, I asked her, I was like, what happens if the bone isn't thick enough? Like you get in there and it's not working, and she's like, well, you know, then we'll stitch you back up and we'll, we'll have to do a bone graft. I was like, okay. Alright. So at least they're not gonna proceed merely forward with this arrogant assumption that they know best if they go in and see. Right. It's not gonna be a sunk cost fallacy,

Rebecca:

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Oh, quick check-in. Was this. All in Spanish or is she speaking English?

Aimee:

The orthodontist does not speak any English.

Rebecca:

Wow.

Aimee:

The dentist does speak some English, but the orthodontist does not. So yeah, this was all, all of it. All of it is in Spanish. And there was, in the initial consult, there was a word that she used that I did not understand that meant that soft plaque

Rebecca:

Why, why didn't you have that vocabulary? That's so normal.

Aimee:

was not yet in the lexicon. Still is not in the lexicon because I promptly forgot it after we figured out what she was saying. And so, you know, I asked what does this word mean? And then she explained it. And in her explaining what it was, I understood that she meant the soft plaque.

Rebecca:

Aw.

Aimee:

Yeah. So even without having all of the vocabulary words, we can communicate really, really well and the only thing I need to do is sometimes I need to be like, can you slow down please so I can understand

Rebecca:

Yeah.

Aimee:

But outside of that, you know, I would say I understood almost everything. so they go in, this was last week. They go in and. Because for me, the experience of dental surgery, this is my first dental surgery and the experience was, so I would say it's an aggressive treatment. Right?

Rebecca:

Yeah,

Aimee:

part of me.

Rebecca:

your jaw, right?

Aimee:

Yeah, part of me wants to go into very graphic detail because it was so intense, but I'm also being mindful of our listeners who may not want to hear what all of this actually entails to the degree that I want to describe it. So let's just say they cut open the gum to reveal the jaw, and then they drill holes into the jaw, and then they put the posts in and screw in the post.

Rebecca:

And you are cl you, it seems like you're not under a general anesthesia. You must just

Aimee:

Uh, not general. Lots of local. I think she gave me six or seven shots. You know, I, it was very much like afterwards it was almost like I'd had a stroke. Like I would, I didn't feel anything. She was very, very good with the local.

Rebecca:

But you can still hear it.

Aimee:

Yeah. Yeah. Of course you can still feel, hear it, you can feel the pressure. And because my jaw is still slightly crooked, when it is open wide for a long period of time, it gets locked open. And, but due to a situation that I had as a teenager, I learned from an ER doc how to unhinging my jaw so that it can close my mouth. My mouth is, is a mess.

Rebecca:

Okay, so here we are. We have

Aimee:

And that was one of the things that was supposed to be fixed, that didn't get fixed. That cost me like six grand. And here, here we are, but I am, yes, I am bitter, but I'm not traumatized. I'm just bitter. So posts get screwed in. She stitches up the gums and she's like, you should not be experiencing any pain. You should not have any pain from this at all. And I'm like, what the hell? How is that even possible? And she's like, if there is pain, I want you to contact me immediately. There should not be pain. Maybe, you might need some ibuprofen tonight because of, because of the ache. But it should no pain, no pain. And, take your antibiotics for four more days. She put me on a prophylactic antibiotic three days before. Take your antibiotic for four more days. Here's an ice pack. Take this home, squeeze it. It will become cold. Put it on your face. I was like, oh, that's so sweet. That's so adorable and sweet. Thank you. And um. Then she sends me on my way. When the anesthesia wears off, there's definitely a, a heat and throbbing kind of thing. But again, but not, not pain like I was expecting. I went into this and I had asked her like, do I need to be eating nothing but yogurt and gazpacho for a week? How long until I can have solid food? And she's like, no, no, no, no. You can have fish, you can have tortillas. You know, the Spanish tortillas, not Mexican tortillas. Right. So the eggs basically. This is all totally fine. Just don't eat anything crunchy like toast with little bits that can, get stuck. You have this side of the mouth that you can chew on. You don't need to be on a liquid diet, which is what I had been preparing for, right? I had prepared for like acute pain, liquid diet, cancel everything that day because I didn't know what kind of situation I was gonna be in.

Rebecca:

What's interesting is it's reminding me of the how we infantalize our kids in the United States. Until they're like 35. Our, our healthcare system is, is actually very similar. We're so, yeah. And she's not doing that. She's being very matter of fact, she's treating you as an adult. It's really fascinating to hear.'cause it feels really different to me. Mm-hmm.

Aimee:

Well, it's not unlike Damien's surgery where he was under local for a freaking rotator cuff surgery and got to listen to them, saw into his shoulders like, what the hell? You know? But in the US you're having a colonoscopy. We're gonna put you out cold.

Rebecca:

yeah. God forbid that you have to endure any kind of discomfort, even for a moment, and it makes us so soft and brittle. We can't handle anything and everything is now listed as trauma.

Aimee:

I completely agree. And even, even the situation that I had, general anesthesia in the US is totally available for implants.

Rebecca:

Yeah. Fascinating. Okay, so you're, you're, you're packed with an ice pack. You, you're sent

Aimee:

ice pack, I got some antibiotics. Uh, she gave me like a topical painkiller and a prescription for something that I don't quite know what it is, but it like forms a protective layer on the gum. To reduce irritation and has a little bit of antibiotic properties that I picked up from the pharmacy. I go home, the anesthesia wears off. There's some throbbing. I would say like a heat sensation, a little prickly sensation, not the kind of pain I was expecting at all. When I went to bed at night, there was definitely like an increased throbbing, right? So I got, that's when I used the ice pack was for bed. That was it. I didn't need ibuprofen, I didn't need anything the next day. I felt totally fine. Um,

Rebecca:

That's incredible.

Aimee:

it is, it is. And because there was no bone graft, all of this is gonna be done by November, not next spring,

Rebecca:

Incredible.

Aimee:

it's costing me less than half of what it would in the states.

Rebecca:

where I wanted to go next. So logistics, um, like literal logistics. When did you pay people money? How, tell us about the logistics of it and how much money are we talking? I.

Aimee:

right. So I went in for the consultation that was 65 euro. Then I went and had the MRI done, I think that was 35 euro came back. she was like, well, this only shows the side. I also wanna see the top. And so I had to go back and get a second MRI. That one I think was in the 60 or 70 Euro range'cause it was a more comprehensive MRI.

Rebecca:

And are these, um. like a copay

Aimee:

No, this is out

Rebecca:

of

Aimee:

no insurance for this. This is straight, a hundred percent out of pocket

Rebecca:

why is there no insurance for this? Is

Aimee:

We do not, we do not have, dental as part of our insurance. And they're also, they are also a private clinic. The holistic clinic is not part of the public system.

Rebecca:

Got it. So you could have stayed in the public system for this procedure,

Aimee:

No, our visa, does not allow us to take advantage of the public system. This is another interesting thing about Spain on, on the Digital Nomad visa. You have to pay taxes and social security. However, you are not permitted to make use of the public system. You have to pay for private insurance even though you're paying into the public

Rebecca:

That's fascinating. And what does the, I don't know if you know the answer to this, but how, uh, if you do, how does the cost of that private insurance compare to what you would be paying in the United States for the equivalent care?

Aimee:

A family of three is 2000 euro per year.

Rebecca:

Wow. That's incredible. Okay, so that's the insurance you have? It's private insurance, but that insurance does not cover what we're

Aimee:

vision.

Rebecca:

about because of that. Okay. So all of these costs are, they're, they're, just the straight up costs. It was just 65 Euros, just 70 euro.

Aimee:

exactly. Just 65 euro for the consult. A total of maybe a hundred euro for the two MRIs. The implants themselves are going to be, I think, a total of 4,200 euro for two implants, and I paid half of that. After the posts were put in, I'll pay the rest of it. When the crowns are put in.

Rebecca:

Okay. So you've just paid all this money out of pocket

Aimee:

Mm-hmm.

Rebecca:

and it sounds like total, this whole thing's gonna end up being around five or six grand all said and done, or, or a little bit less.

Aimee:

Which I believe in, at least in the Seattle area, is less than what one implant would cost. I think the last quote I got was about 10 grand for an implant

Rebecca:

are the numbers I'm remembering when Damien has looked into it too. So I do think we're looking at at least half the cost. Um, now, of course.

Aimee:

quicker recovery time. Quicker turnaround, right? Like it's not gonna be a nearly year long process at, you know, it's gonna be four months. And not this drama.

Rebecca:

So I'd say it's a win.

Aimee:

It's such a win. It's such a win.

Rebecca:

That is really awesome. Congratulations.'cause it has been a 22 year journey for you since that baby tooth fell out.

Aimee:

It's true. It has. Yes.

Rebecca:

That's incredible. I know. I was really looking forward to having this conversation because dental care in a foreign country, I think might be one of the scariest things anybody worries about facing.

Aimee:

Yeah, I mean, yeah, exactly. Medical care overseas. And part of that is because when you are living in the states, when you return to the states, if you've had a procedure done overseas, whether it's. You know, breast implants or Brazilian butt, whatever they do. Or dental care. No. US doctor is going to touch you if they did not do the procedure themselves.

Rebecca:

And that's specific to foreign procedures rather than like another US doctor doing a procedure.

Aimee:

I believe so. I believe so, yeah.

Rebecca:

is really interesting. So something to be aware of, I guess, if people are pursuing medical tourism is that you may have a real trouble, you may have trouble getting follow-up care or complications care.

Aimee:

Exactly. So if you cannot stay in that country for the bulk of the immediate, you know, acute post-op care, you really need to reconsider whether or not that is going to be the best choice.

Rebecca:

That's really interesting information. Yeah.

Aimee:

Yeah. Or set yourselves up, up so you know, you, you like, figure out if you can, can stay there if that's even remotely feasible. All of my Mexican family that live in the States, they do travel to Mexico for their healthcare because it's much more effective and it's in their, you know, it's in a culture and a language that they're, you know. They are more comfortable with, but I had a, a cousin whose wife just did all of her oncology care in Guadalajara and, he was traveling back and forth between the states and Mexico to see her, but she was down there staying with family while she was getting treatment.

Rebecca:

It's so interesting because the indoctrinate, I, I don't know if indoctrination is the right word, or, um, the brainwashing. Yeah. About how. Of the US exceptionalism,

Aimee:

Oh yeah.

Rebecca:

the best care. Other places are going to kill you. To sum it up shortly, and even having lived here, even with Damien's medical experience and yours, it's really hard to shake that indoctrination and trust the for. I find that it's hard to then trust it, even though I really, really want to. It's

Aimee:

Yeah, I don't, you know, I have such a, and this is. Kind of tragic to say because I am part of the healthcare system, you know, career wise. But I have such a strong mistrust of US healthcare systems that, that for me is not the fear. Like I don't worry that worry to go to Mexico, that they wouldn't sterilize their instruments or, or, you know, be, just be like super backwater.

Rebecca:

Because that's the story we're told for sure.

Aimee:

Absolutely. Absolutely. Like it's all, you know, red Cross volunteers doing major surgery with limited resources. Right? Like if you're not in the US or Britain or Canada or Australia, you are like, it's the wild West. No, that's

Rebecca:

even if you are in one of the other countries you mentioned, um, then they'll talk about the death panels and how you have to wait 1 million years to get any healthcare taken care of, you know? So it doesn't matter which country we're talking about. US is the only way to go, which is bull Winky.

Aimee:

It is a hundred percent. A hundred percent. And I really, I actually want to thank you because you and I talked before I went into the surgery because I, I had told you, you know, I only met this orthodontist once and I'm trusting her to do this major thing, and I'm a little nervous about it. I didn't have the degree of internal. I would say trauma response that, you know, I would've had before, but I was still kind of nervous'cause, there was no pre-op. Discussion. This is everything that you need to do, right? There was no handouts. It was just like, this looks good. You don't need a bone graft, you shouldn't experience any pain. This is gonna be great. You'll be fine. And I'm like, but what? Everybody's always said that my mouth is so complicated. Um, and. We had talked about that, you and I and you, and I was like, I don't, you know, I was thinking about getting a second opinion and postponing the, the surgery, which I did not tell you, but that was running through my mind, like, get the second opinion. Don't trust the first person you walk in and see. And you had told me that the, the way that she was approaching it, was so different and felt so foreign, but in the US. Everything is the bone graft may actually not be met necessary, but in the US it would be recommended, one for liability reasons, and two, because the financial incentive to overtreat is prevalent and pervasive, and now I suspect largely unconscious as part of our healthcare system. And that really helped me. Combat that concern that maybe they were not doing due diligence in my case.

Rebecca:

That is really awesome. I had no idea that it helped that much, and I'm thrilled and I, and I actually wanna give a shout out to those medical providers in the United States. Because being in the system sucks. And while it is the doctor over-prescribing and over caring, not in a bedside manner, but in a treatment manner, they are victims of the system every bit as much as we are as patients.

Aimee:

yes, the litigious nature of our culture cannot be understated as being, I would say the root cause. Of what we're experiencing now.

Rebecca:

Yeah. I think, you know, my, my parents were very much in the medical system. My stepmother was a hospice nurse. My stepfather was a plastic surgeon, and my mother was an ER nurse, so they were in it from a lot of angles and they watched it change through the eighties and they left. Um, my stepmother stayed in a long time, you know, she's doing hospice work and so it's the meaning kept her going. Not the, not the bureaucracy, but they. They watched a healthcare system become what it is now, which is the opposite of care, and yet people still go in, hoping to help people wanting to make a difference, but their hands are tied at this point.

Aimee:

Yeah. Yeah, it's, it's such a mess. It's such a mess.

Rebecca:

I'd love to, um, circle way like 10,000 foot view elevation on the money for a second because in different episodes we've talked about the amount of taxes that you have to pay in and stuff like that. Do you have a sense at this point over two years, I think, into you being an expat of how the money is washing out in terms of your overall. Affordability, afford doing this life versus doing the same life in the states.

Aimee:

Yeah, it, it ends up being, it ends up being about the same, the amount of money that we are saving in food costs and rent costs, and not having a car and having like gloriously inexpensive health insurance, um, in the low cost of out of pocket medical care, in private school tuition savings. Like all of that money that's being saved is going to the Spanish government. So at the end of the day, you know, we are not, you know, we're not the amount of, like the other day, it was probably not the other day, um, couple weeks ago, I think Shane was saying, you know, I'm not able to save any more here than I could when we were in the States because all of it has to basically go into this account to pay for taxes. So from a strictly financial getting ahead situation, it's, it's the same. It's basically the same. However, what we do receive here that we don't get in the States is, you know, I had a full morning of errands today. I went to the dentist, I got my hair cut. I, uh, stopped by on the way home to a little shop where my friend works. I made a coffee date with her. You know, I was out all morning and it was wonderful and delightful. And I was asking myself like, if I had a full morning of errands in the States, it would not feel this way. What is the difference? And the difference is I'm on foot, I'm walking from place to place. I'm out in the environment. I'm not stuck in traffic. I'm not in a car. It is such a different lived experience and so much kinder to the central nervous system to be on foot and not trapped in a tin box with, you know, 50,000 other people trapped in a tin box on a freeway breathing exhaust. And, and that is something that. We don't get in the States, we don't have the sense, the social life and the community that we have here. We did not have the entire time that Shane and I have been together, we have not experienced that. It's um,

Rebecca:

Which may be related to something you were just talking about when you have to drive an hour to see a friend who's gonna do it.

Aimee:

Exactly. Exactly. And there are these random chance meetings on the street. For instance, yesterday I was walking home and I was super stuck in my head. And our favorite baker who just closed down her shop in January due to some family things and the struggles of trying to be a small business owner in this country. she stopped me on the bridge and she like grabbed my arm and was like, Hey. And I was like, oh my goodness, hi. You know? And I give her a big hug and a kiss. We had a brief chat and and then we parted ways and then, and then Shane had gone Sunday. So Sunday grocery stores are, everything is closed in, in Spain. For the most part, except for places that cater to tourists. And it was Sunday. We didn't have anything for dinner, didn't really wanna go out to eat. there's one grocery store that we know will be open, but we weren't sure if they were gonna be open'cause it was already like seven o'clock at night. And it's the place that I refer to as the immigrant or hippie grocery store, which I won't get into why I call it that right now. It is run by, it is run by other, other expats. So they're open on holidays, they're open late, right? They don't adhere to Spanish hours. But there was a new place, a new national chain that opened up down the road and, but in the touristy, very much touristy area where all the Airbnbs are. So I was like, well, why don't you go down and see if Conduce is open. Even though it's almost, you know, 7, 7 30, 8 o'clock at night, there's no hurt in checking to see if it's open. We'd know that for the future. And if it's not open, you can go to the immigrant grocery store. So he goes there and it turns out it is open. And he runs into someone that he knew from the coffee shop. One of the former, I think she's a barista, she was the manager of the coffee shop. And then she's left. But he ran into her, you know, hello, hugs, whatever, and they, and, um. I'm not sure exactly how the conversation went down'cause I wasn't there. But Shane said something like, you know you're here on a Sunday night getting groceries too. And her response was, yes. This is the walk of shame.

Rebecca:

Oh my goodness.

Aimee:

This is, the Spanish walk of shame when you are so unprepared that you have to go and try and find food on a Sunday'cause you don't have your shit together. That is the Spanish walk of shame.

Rebecca:

Oh my gosh. I did not. That's

Aimee:

Not where you thought that was going. Huh?

Rebecca:

no, but I love it. I love it.

Aimee:

We both had a really, really good laugh. I cracked up when he told me that. I was like, that is gorgeous.

Rebecca:

Brilliant. Um, so obviously you're gonna try to avoid the walk of shame in the future.

Aimee:

Yeah. I mean, yes, it's, I mean, it's always in your best interest to avoid the walk of shame because the goods at any grocery store on a Sunday night are generally very picked over,

Rebecca:

Yeah, yeah,

Aimee:

there's no guarantees that you will find milk or eggs or protein.

Rebecca:

It is so fascinating how what you're describing. Is more than the sum of its parts. Walking to do an errand isn't just walking, it isn't just getting the errand done. You're walking, you're socializing, you are, you're being with yourself. There's so many things that are happening there that you never think about.

Aimee:

There's no opportunity to think about them because you're not often in that situation.

Rebecca:

When, even when we were traveling this summer, we were in a lot of bigger cities and we had our, um, car with us and it really reminded us that living in Paris is special. So a lot of these benefits we're talking about are true no matter where in Western Europe you might be living. But some of them are very specific to making sure you're in a walkable. City or a walkable town, because even in Europe you can find the suburbs and you can find places that you, if you don't have a car, you're truly stranded.

Aimee:

Absolutely.

Rebecca:

in thinking about your exp pet experience, walkability I think should be really high on the list because it is so much more profoundly impactful than, oh, you can walk to the store. It's bigger than that.

Aimee:

Yeah. If you really wanna get out of big cities, you know, you can find a small village and live in the outskirts of the small village, and maybe it's a 15 or 20 minute walk into the village where then all of your needs, your grocery vendors, your, the per where you get your haircut, all of those things would be in the village. And then you don't have to deal with something as, as intense as city life. One would find in Paris or even a smaller city like Gerona, you know, it's still wherever a town has been formed, it is by its very nature walkable because most of them go back to the middle ages, if not earlier.

Rebecca:

I say city, even something like Kaison, which is a crazy medieval walled town, but it has everything you need. You can walk from one end to the other. It's not so tiny that you're gonna get bored quickly. Um,

Aimee:

It's not like a, it's not like a tiny ghost town along Route 66 where there's a gas station and a seven 11 and that's it. It's not like that.

Rebecca:

It isn't. It isn't. Well, that was very revealing. Mostly. I am so happy that the surgery went well. I mean, listen to you. You're just talking up a storm and it's been one week since dental surgery. That's awesome.

Aimee:

No big deal. Yep. Stitches got taken out. Everything looks pretty good, she said. So I just, and I go back for, for the finish in November.

Rebecca:

Okay. So I'll let you start the sign off.

Aimee:

All right. Thanks again for listening folks, and, uh, until the next time we speak Lugo.

Speaker:

We hope you enjoyed this episode of Banla. If you did, the best thing you can do is share it with another person, brave enough to move abroad. See you next time.