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EP 79: Updates to the Portugal Golden Visas, and an Essential Step to Prevent Visa Delays

• Rebecca West

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Welcome to Bon Jola, a podcast about two women, Amy and Rebecca, who each move from the United States to Europe to become expats. Amy to Spain and Rebecca to France. We're here to share the highs, the lows, and the logistics of this adventure. Encourage you to follow your own, move abroad dreams, and remind you that you're not alone when the going gets tough. Enjoy.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi21227344005:

banjo. Amy,

audioAimee11227344005:

Bon Jola, Rebecca?

audioRebeccaWest,Busi21227344005:

you recently shared with me that you're considering doing a golden visa pursuit in Portugal just like I did. And so we thought we would talk about my experience choosing it and what you are discovering about it.

audioAimee11227344005:

Okay. Alright. Yeah. So more transparency. for our listeners, it is very clear at this point that we will not be able to finish the digital Nomad visa for five years to then apply for permanent residency in Spain because I am needed back home in the States and we are like the, the forecast is we will be moving back to the United States, um, at the end of the school year in 2026, so next summer. And, that's shitty, I do not want to leave the area. I don't wanna leave Europe without having a return plan. Thought out, right? At least an idea of how do I get back here? Whether we're able to come back in two years, whether we're able to come back in five years, however long it takes. I don't, I don't wanna stay. I don't wanna stay in the us I'm terrified of being trapped there

audioRebeccaWest,Busi21227344005:

Yes.

audioAimee11227344005:

um, you know, which is, which is just really shortsighted, limited thinking on my part. I know I can easily see that. But anyway, I don't wanna close this door, right? I don't wanna say, okay, you tried it, it didn't work'cause it's bullshit and there's no reason for me to settle for aging. And dying in the us.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi21227344005:

Which is what it really comes down to for me.

audioAimee11227344005:

yes. Yeah. So I reached out to the guy that you worked with, Jonathan at, what was the, what's the name of the company he works for? Again, it starts with an H.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi21227344005:

It does should that off the top, but I've got too many people helping me with too many different international things. Um, Jonathan, holborn, Holborn and Associates outta the uk.

audioAimee11227344005:

Right? Right. so I reached out to him and got an appointment to speak with him about my options, since we started this process, should I continue with Spain? Is Portugal even an option given like the whole golden visa thing that's, changed over there? Um, the fact that I have Mexican citizenship, even though I do not have a passport, from Mexico, does that change things? You know, like, what, what can I do to get back? And he was super helpful. He was great. After an initial visit, I can say totally recommend, totally recommend him. Um, either he is an excellent, smooth salesman or he really knows his shit and is really good. Maybe it's both.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi21227344005:

No, I have the exact same feeling. You guys, he has this beautiful British accent and he's a fine looking man. You know, he got not

audioAimee11227344005:

He is easy on the eyes. It's true, easy on the eyes. Elder, millennial, I think.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi21227344005:

yeah, if you think he's a bit younger than us, um, but not very much. Yeah. He, you want to work with this guy and, and to the

audioAimee11227344005:

So true.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi21227344005:

Am I being like, is this my brain doing this to me, or am I using logic? But having worked with him and given a lot of my money to that company and to Portugal, at this point, I at least do feel very confident in the investment that I.

audioAimee11227344005:

That's good. That's good to hear. Um, yeah.'cause we've already put so much money into getting here and the thought of how much, you know, and I don't even know how much you've spent, like I'm scared about that, but

audioRebeccaWest,Busi21227344005:

Yeah, I, and it. honestly would be hard for me to just say it off the top of my head, but I wanna say that I've paid lawyers, I wanna say it's at least$10,000. Um, and that's not counting the investment, which requires, at least for my scheme, it was$500,000.

audioAimee11227344005:

Yep.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi21227344005:

I can't remember which one, but those are the kinds of numbers we're talking about. But I will say that Holborn has been incredibly responsive. I was kind of afraid that they'd make the sale and kind of evaporate and no, they are always not just the whole team. Like sometimes you'll get a salesman and then you're handed off. Jonathan is on every single email. He is right there holding our hands and it's important because the backlog makes you terrified. We still have not been called in for our biometric appointment. It's been like two years. They keep changing the system. So you don't know, like, do we have to visit?'cause you're supposed to be there two years. Two weeks out of every two years after the biometric. But obviously this is a lot of time ticking away where they have our money, so. You know, it's all out of Holborn's hands. They don't have any control over the Portuguese movement, but they have been incredibly responsive. Big kudos to them.

audioAimee11227344005:

That's great. That's good to hear.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi21227344005:

So that's enough about Jonathan and his amazing accent. Where were we?

audioAimee11227344005:

So, in speaking with him, you know, one of the things that he said was that the, so the golden visa through Portugal is not dead. That's the news, right? That's the news. Can't, can't do golden visa anymore. Not true. It just looks different. And he explained it to me. I wrote notes down somewhere. I cannot find them to save my life. Um. Effectively it's, you know, it is investing in Portugal, either through a donation where you invest in like the, um, the arts or culture, right? And you can do that for as little as 250,000 euro. Um, yeah, yeah. Actually quote, affordable compared, you know, to double that, right. Or through investing in, I believe mutual funds, that would be half a million Euro as well, or again, through property, but through business properties just like you. So this would be a national hotel chain, and you would give them, there's like a 349,000 euro option, a 399,000 euro option, and then the 500,000 euro option. And the 3 49 you would have to take a loan out to cover the rest of it that was needed, and then pay back that loan at like 5% interest. I don't quite remember the details of the 3 99 option. Um, and then there's the, the 500,000 and in the, at the end, whether you do the 3 49 or the 3 99 or the 500, at the very end of it, you would be investing half a million euro into a.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi21227344005:

So it's still a 500,000 Euro investment. There's just different ways to run the math.

audioAimee11227344005:

exactly. Exactly. Yes. That's perfect way to summarize it. Different ways to run the math in case you don't have the full half a million sitting there waiting.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi21227344005:

is it the same as mine where then it's a five year period where the money has to remain invested? And at the end of the five years, assuming you meet a few other criteria, you can apply for citizenship. Is that the same situation? Yeah.

audioAimee11227344005:

correct. And then either sell your apartment or keep it the, the apartment in the hotel that you've chosen to invest in.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi21227344005:

That's exactly like ours. And then the benefit for us, what is that? We have access to that apartment for those for six weeks out of every year. We only have to be there two weeks out of every two years. Since we're here living in Europe, obviously we make the most of that, and I use all six weeks. I've done that now for two and a half years going on.

audioAimee11227344005:

Yeah. Yeah. Which is really good because from a Portuguese standpoint, it shows your commitment. Two being in Portugal. And that was one other thing he said is that you can improve your odds of the process going very smoothly and being approved by not just the financial investment, but making efforts to, participate in Portuguese culture. Learn the language, you know, even if you are not living in Portugal. Participating in some things that leave a paper trail showing that you are not just throwing money into an EU citizenship, but that you like Portugal, you wanna spend some time there, right? So these are,

audioRebeccaWest,Busi21227344005:

reels of attending a medieval festival and overdose counts because, oh, I have such a crush on that city.

audioAimee11227344005:

I imagine it wouldn't hurt your application process.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi21227344005:

So obviously this sounds amazing, but I know I, it was a total leap of faith when I decided to do this to the point where I was also like, I mean, when we were doing this, there was like three days left in our time here in Paris from our first three month visit

audioAimee11227344005:

Mm-hmm.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi21227344005:

and we hopped on a plane. And went and saw the property because we're like, I need to, I need to know that this exists before I just throw my money at a country. I'm assuming you're feeling some of those same feelings of anxiety.

audioAimee11227344005:

Yeah, I, I am, I am feeling a little bit of that, and I'm also like, well, I should have very, at the very least, visit Portugal before we leave Europe.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi21227344005:

I'll be there in November if you wanna come. I over.

audioAimee11227344005:

know, I know. I'm thinking about maybe hopping over for a weekend just so that I can get my eyeballs and my feet in the country and,

audioRebeccaWest,Busi21227344005:

We could even go visit whatever property he's suggesting.

audioAimee11227344005:

yeah. Yeah. So, so then the other thing was that, because I am a citizen of Mexico. Through my father, he was like, oh wait, I may be, I may be losing a client here, but you really should go back to your lawyer and talk to them about seeing if you can apply for citizenship through Spain, retroactively using your Mexican citizenship. And so I did email the lawyer. I've really, it's interesting. I have been procrastinating on that email even though it would be an easier and cheaper way to get an EU passport, and I think it's because it's more complicated than, oh, I have Mexican citizenship. Right. My, my name is my maiden name. Not my married name

audioRebeccaWest,Busi21227344005:

I know about the complications of that

audioAimee11227344005:

exactly. and I do not have a passport. I am in the government system as being a citizen, but I don't yet have a Mexican ID or a Mexican passport. So it would necessitate me before we leave in June, getting the Mexican government to issue those to me and being there to pick them up. Um.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi21227344005:

in Mexico to pick them up.

audioAimee11227344005:

Mexico. Yeah. Like I would need to have that issued and I need to be in Mexico in order to, order it. Possibly not to pick it up, but that seems so complicated right now. That part of me is like, oh my God, let me just sell the property I have in the US and give the money to Portugal.'cause that just seems easier. but obviously kind of being on the outskirts of the little details I have about your experience No, no, it would not, it would not be any easier to do it this

audioRebeccaWest,Busi21227344005:

are easy. It's the thing we just have to, and I think it's not about picking one path, it's about taking a baby step on one and then getting back on the other path and taking another baby step on that one. That's my experience with almost every single thing we've had to do by being expats.

audioAimee11227344005:

It's true, you don't know, the path is not clear cut because individual cases are so varied and the path becomes clearer the further you walk down on it. Whether it is, yes, this is the right path, or no, I need to deviate from this path and do something else, or even abort mission, turn around, go home. This is not the way. Go

audioRebeccaWest,Busi21227344005:

It is such a choose your own adventure book. It really is.

audioAimee11227344005:

it. Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. And you know, that has been my thoughts with the whole weight of leaving Europe and going back to the States is, is this actually the right thing to do? And you know.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi21227344005:

trying to invest here or going back to the states.

audioAimee11227344005:

no. The grappling with the, do I uproot my family and go back to the states, to the place of my birth to do what appears is in the, you know, it would, would be the, the smart thing. The the smart thing to do.'cause it's not it that is also super not cut and dry. We're dealing with personalities, we're dealing with. Messes.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi21227344005:

You got family, you got business. Those are the two most messy things that exist, and they're

audioAimee11227344005:

Pretty much. Pretty much. And they're together. Exactly. And by and large. So, you know, for, again, for those of you who are not privy to the details of my private life. You know, we're mid-September now, and I have been traveling back to the States every two to three months to attend to Business Matters this year, and also to feel out is this worth, is this sacrifice going to be worth it? And I'm consistently getting signs that going to be less pushback than I feared. That's my hope And, and things are looking as like, yes, it's not going to be as, as horrible as I, as I feared so.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi21227344005:

moving back.

audioAimee11227344005:

But it still requires yes. But, but, and the other thing is that, that is very clear, is that the multitudes of different things that have been neglected, that are being eroded, that are, that are just simply too much for one person to continue to take on in totality. is not manageable from afar that yes, additional support needs to be

audioRebeccaWest,Busi21227344005:

If you're gonna do this. It has to be there. So you,

audioAimee11227344005:

Yeah. It's not something I can half-ass from across the pond.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi21227344005:

so like, I mean, it's a little bit like the situation I was in, in that I took a leap of faith to move to France and a leap of faith to invest in Portugal. But both of them felt positive for me. They, it was, it was a, oh, I want both of these things. And

audioAimee11227344005:

Hmm.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi21227344005:

in a place where you are not sure if either of these are happy things. So you're trying to take a leap of faith when you're like, but I was already good.

audioAimee11227344005:

I, I would say this is not what I expected. It is not what I wanted from my life. Um. Don't cry any tears because none of us get through life without facing things that we don't expect or want. Right. So I'm not really, I'm not looking for any sympathy or anything like that. It has the potential to be fulfilling and purposeful, which is one of the things that I have been missing here in Europe because I am not able to work the way that I did in the States in a way that has. Feeds me to the degree that I need to be fed from my career. And as much as I have tried the last two years, I cannot seem to extract my sense of fulfillment from my work. So the fact that this. That this work may hold. That for me is a positive thing. It is a positive thing. The fact that my child is not at all upset to return to the States, but is kind of looking forward to it, is a, oh God, it's such a huge, huge blessing because if, if he was very highly attached and not wanting to leave at all, I'm not sure that I could. I'm also not sure that I could stay here and watch things degrade in the direction that they were going and not regret it for the rest of my life. Which is why

audioRebeccaWest,Busi21227344005:

try.

audioAimee11227344005:

yes, I, I feel like I have to try, I have to do what I can. Um, and this is, you know, this is like it's legacy stuff. It's beyond. Numbers and shit like that. there's a degree of legacy that I feel, um, with it and,

audioRebeccaWest,Busi21227344005:

I mean, I think anybody out there who has a family business understands what you are feeling. Family businesses, I mean, there's a whole TV show called Family Business, and it's

audioAimee11227344005:

oh God,

audioRebeccaWest,Busi21227344005:

It's funny, it's actually a, we, it's a weed business. Um,

audioAimee11227344005:

a weed business.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi21227344005:

by like royalty or lords, I don't know, in Europe. It's a very funny show. You might actually enjoy it right now,

audioAimee11227344005:

huh?

audioRebeccaWest,Busi21227344005:

family, business, it's, it is complicated because you care in a way about the people who are involved in a way you don't, if it's just a regular business.

audioAimee11227344005:

Right, right. Exactly. Yeah.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi21227344005:

Thanksgiving dinner only with money. Fun.

audioAimee11227344005:

And, and lives, right? There, there are several, more than several families that the businesses support

audioRebeccaWest,Busi21227344005:

Yeah.

audioAimee11227344005:

and you know, I feel a sense of responsibility for that aspect as well.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi21227344005:

Of course.

audioAimee11227344005:

So it is, you know, so even though I am. Grieving that this is not how I expected being in Europe to flow or to unroll. I also consistently feel like this is the most appropriate and best next step. For our lives.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi21227344005:

So when it comes to trying to keep that lifeline to Europe. Obviously there's the decisions between what is the best lifeline, but there's also a decision to be made between whether or not to let go and have faith that it'll come back on its own versus doing the work of creating that tether now. And I, you know, I think it's partly our age. It doesn't feel. As smart to just be like, whatever the wind brings will be great because we have responsibilities and bills and, and if you make the wrong decision with your money, you know, like for example, I had to sell my my own home. The, the thing that I had as my main asset, I sold that in Seattle in order to make this investment. So I completely divested myself with any property in the States, which also meant that I had to pay those huge capital gains taxes in order to make the leap of faith.

audioAimee11227344005:

That's exactly what I'm looking at as well, and it is terrifying.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi21227344005:

is because there's no undoing. You can't, you don't get that money back later if

audioAimee11227344005:

You lose your Yes, exactly. You lose the value of that asset. You lose the rental income it is bringing in.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi21227344005:

And the access to a market that I'll probably never get back into again, the housing market in Seattle. And not that I think I want to, this was all part of my calculation, but we don't have crystal balls and so I did make some decisions that while not final like death, there is finalist taxes.

audioAimee11227344005:

Yeah, the taxes have been paid. The property is not in your name.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi21227344005:

Yeah, that was a, that was really terrifying. And you know, it's not my husband's property. It's not my parents' property. I talked to all of them for their advice, but at the end of the day, me and my little 45 years of wisdom had to make this massive financial decision for myself. I don't regret it at all, even though I'm still in the limbo of seeing where it's even going. I am really proud of myself for leaping off that cliff.

audioAimee11227344005:

Yeah, you are a much more risk adverse person than I am.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi21227344005:

yeah. I would rather keep a dollar than possibly like win 10, like. If you're offering me 10 for sure, obviously I'm gonna take that. I'm good at math. But if there's.

audioAimee11227344005:

Yeah. But it sounds like for you, the risk of losing all of that money not as great as the risk of being in the US and staying there for the rest of your life.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi21227344005:

Well, this is really how I've made all the big decisions in my life, you know, from my. Divorce to my second marriage, even my divorce, I could have stayed and tried to make the marriage work, but what was I risking in my personal mental wellbeing and everything to make that choice? I could have said no to Damien when he asked me to marry him.'cause I was. Not wanting to do that again, but I was risking losing the best human I had ever met. So to me it really just comes down to making a pro and con list and going, I know it's terrifying, but it just maths this side bigger reward than this loss potential.

audioAimee11227344005:

That's the best we can do. Right?

audioRebeccaWest,Busi21227344005:

Yeah.

audioAimee11227344005:

Yeah. I've often made many of my choices in life from the of least regret standpoint

audioRebeccaWest,Busi21227344005:

Mm-hmm. Which usually asks for risk.

audioAimee11227344005:

Yes, it does. It does, absolutely. And, and in my. Handful of years on the planet. I have noticed that it seems like there are those who, there are those who look at life through that lens. What will I regret more X or Y? And those who kind of look at life through the lens of better the devil, you know, than the one you don't.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi21227344005:

Yeah. Yeah, there I, I'm sure I've mentioned on the pod before. There's a book called Who Moved My Cheese.

audioAimee11227344005:

Oh, who moved my cheese? Yes.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi21227344005:

oh, a classic book. So if there's anybody out there who struggles with taking risks and needs a little courage and confidence, that book is a lovely little, little read.

audioAimee11227344005:

Yeah. Yeah, it is. It is. So I've emailed the lawyer inquiring if there is retroactive citizenship opportunities available.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi21227344005:

Because you at least need the information.

audioAimee11227344005:

I mean, I could proceed with the Portuguese Visa option without that information, but it would be stupid to do so.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi21227344005:

Yeah, I

audioAimee11227344005:

Simply put, it would be stupid because we have been, Spain has a, a deal, you know, part of their, what do they call it?

audioRebeccaWest,Busi21227344005:

It's like repatriation or something,

audioAimee11227344005:

That's what, that's the word that I was thinking of. Yeah. Repatriation. Yeah. Part of their repa, repatriation for their brief, but wildly successful,, conquering of the Americas that any citizen of one of their former colonies or one of their former occupied territories can fast track a citizenship to Spain. In two years time rather

audioRebeccaWest,Busi21227344005:

only that passport in your way. Why do

audioAimee11227344005:

in, in, I mean, yes and no. It's the passport. It's the fact that the passport would not be in the name that my current visa is in. Those are two different names. the reason why my Mexican passport and citizenship is not in my family name that I've created is because my partner and I are not actually legally married. We presented name change documentation to Mexico saying We have both changed our names. And they're like, no, no, we need a marriage certificate. Well, there's no marriage certificate. This is the legal name change that we've both done. And they're like, yeah, that doesn't compute because. You guys aren't married and, and they can't, like

audioRebeccaWest,Busi21227344005:

fascinating.

audioAimee11227344005:

grok, they can't, they can't grok this 21st century concept of changing your name. I would not be able to get the passport in the name that matches the name that my Visa is in, in Spain.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi21227344005:

Right.

audioAimee11227344005:

If Spain will recognize that name change document as sufficient is one thing. Even if they do, they would still probably require that I change my Mexican passport to match the name I've been living under in Spain, which Mexico is like, that doesn't, but you're not, we don't understand. We can't understand this weird American thing you've done. Um. And then because

audioRebeccaWest,Busi21227344005:

tying the knot? Just for the paperwork

audioAimee11227344005:

Oh, a hundred percent.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi21227344005:

finally got married. Um, my mom and stepdad because he was about to sail a boat from, uh I don't know, New Zealand or something back to Seattle by himself and. That's a really easy way to get lost at sea and die, and health insurance of course doesn't just transfer to your girlfriend.

audioAimee11227344005:

Right.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi21227344005:

so they got married for this similar kind of situation where they're like, the paperwork's just gonna be easier if after 20 years we finally admit that we're probably gonna stay together legally.

audioAimee11227344005:

yeah, yeah, we have talked about that and we would need to do that anyway because if I get my citizenship to Spain through Mexico. I can bequeath that to my son, but I cannot to Shane because we're not legally married. So if that ends up being a route and he wants to also get you citizenship. Yeah, we'll, we'll get married. That's not like, that's not a big deal.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi21227344005:

I love this though because it's such a perfect micro picture of the thing that we keep doing as expats. It's like you peel one onion layer and then there's a whole nother one and a huge piece of advice I have for anybody out there who thinks they ever want to go live in a different country. Get every single piece of paper that you can. The things I'm missing right now in my life for my. Visa and health insurance is what Amy's describing right now. My birth name versus my first married name versus my now name, which is unrelated to my current husband's name, they don't match and France is going, I need to see the documents for this, and I'm having a hell of a time getting my hands on them now that I already live here. So do yourself a favor and get every single document. That goes to any part of your life, especially when it comes to name changes before you take an adventure.

audioAimee11227344005:

Yes, a hundred percent.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi21227344005:

Ugh, I wish I'd known, but I do have a success and I think this is the right time to share this. I think in our last episode I said I was having all of those trouble getting those documents. did finally get through to the government people, the city workers in. Seattle. the divorce records come from the Superior Courthouse where you got divorced, whereas the marriage records come from a different place. I stayed on hold for about an hour and a half.

audioAimee11227344005:

Oh my

audioRebeccaWest,Busi21227344005:

emails back and forth where they were telling me to use a system that I couldn't figure out how to use, but as soon as I finally got a human, which just meant not hanging up. He's like, oh, all you need is a case number. Tap, tap, tap, tap, tap. Here is your case number, and a dollar and 25 later on their online system. I had ordered this document that I had been trying to figure out how to get my hands on for weeks.

audioAimee11227344005:

So the original.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi21227344005:

up, but they are ordered.

audioAimee11227344005:

So the original suggestion of go to this website and do this could not work because you did not have a case number and they didn't tell you you needed one.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi21227344005:

Well, there was a spot on the form for a case number, but I don't know my case number from a divorce that's from over. It was from 2008.

audioAimee11227344005:

so it wasn't a case number needed to get the information. It was the case number for your divorce,

audioRebeccaWest,Busi21227344005:

Who knows that?

audioAimee11227344005:

it's on the divorce paperwork, Rebecca.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi21227344005:

Yeah, that's super helpful. Chicken and egg situation. Anyway, kudos to the guy. He totally helped me out and then it was so easy. The other one, the marriage certificates actually really easy to order online. That's just the one where I told you last episode that there's seems to be an up to seven month delay. So yeah, I don't know what I'll get or when. But I mean, it's a win. You have to take the tiny wins. You emailing your lawyer about the possibility of repatriation is a win. It just sucks that they're so small

audioAimee11227344005:

it is. No, no, even if it's a small one, it's still a win. I don't, I, I've learned not to measure the size of my wins,

audioRebeccaWest,Busi21227344005:

and.

audioAimee11227344005:

because then I will be perpetually disappointed.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi21227344005:

And the key thing is just don't give up anyway. It's sort of like being in a circus and they're like, you haven't jumped through all the hoops yet, and if you give up, that is guaranteed failure.

audioAimee11227344005:

A hundred percent like you're still alive anyway, so you might as well spend your time doing this unless you decide.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi21227344005:

in France, so yay.

audioAimee11227344005:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, of course if you decide it's not worth your time that you're, you know, allotted here on the planet, then by all means do stop. But, but don't stop. Just'cause it's hard. If it means it really is great guys living in Europe, despite the bureaucratic shenanigans which are deeply frustrated despite the crippling taxes, which will. Keep you from getting financially ahead. The quality of life is worth it.

audioRebeccaWest,Busi21227344005:

It circles us right back to what you said at the top of this episode, which is. The, the threat of having to get old and die in the United States is simply enough to keep me going.

audioAimee11227344005:

And on that note, friends.

Speaker:

We hope you enjoyed this episode of Banla. If you did, the best thing you can do is share it with another person, brave enough to move abroad. See you next time.